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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: was Carroll a freemason? |
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Carroll used some figures, symboles of masonry and other organisations...
few examples:
in TTLG:
the chess board land (masonry hall floor)
the mirror
***
in AIW
the roses (rosicrucianism!)
...
Last edited by CeuDistante on Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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NeVaR aSk
Lewis Carroll
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Lenny
Webmaster
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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What is a mason?
_________________
"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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NeVaR aSk
Lewis Carroll
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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Victor Hugo was a freemason, too and there were any books about his freemasonry. Except the book DA VINCI CODE.
xxxx
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NeVaR aSk
Lewis Carroll
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| CeuDistante wrote: | Victor Hugo was a freemason, too and there were any books about his freemasonry. Except the book DA VINCI CODE.
xxxx |
well...so... have you found something credible??
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CeuDistante
Fish-Footman
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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i just found some symboles... *look above*
xxxxx
People does not say they are freemason or something...
they just give the symboles....
just like Hugo, Disney, Botticelli, DaVinci, Louis XVIII, Charlemagne and Madonna
let me give you a few examples from Madonna.
In her Confessions Tour 2006, in the 2nd segment (the segment she is crufixed) she used so much themes from rosicrucianism.
as she's singing Like It Or Not, in the backdrop screen we see a ROSE and a hidden CROSS.
In Girlie Show 1993, as she's singing Justify My Love, we see a mason theme:
Very sophisticated look and a black&white squared background.
...
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NeVaR aSk
Lewis Carroll
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Fane
Queen Alice
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I checked in a few lists of famous freemason and Carroll's name does not appear anywhere. Nevertheless, it is true that there are a few references to freemason symbols and beliefs in the alice books: the chess board, the mirror, the roses, the rabbit's white gloves (masons wear them at assemblies), and the walrus and the carpenter can be seen as having an alchemical meaning. So, one can only speculate, maybe he had friends who were freemasons, or maybe he agreed with some of their ideas but didn't join a lodge (this was the case for Beethoven).
_________________
"If you knew Time as well as I do," said the Hatter,"you wouldn't talk about wasting IT. It's HIM."
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We'reAllMadHere
Lewis Carroll
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Fane
Queen Alice
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Concerning the Walrus and the Carpenter: One theory is that it could be a reference to the Solar Eclipse. Both the moon and the sun are present in the sky. This factor is also mirrored by the two main caracters the walrus (the moon) and the carpenter (the sun (the walrus is more present in the poem, he does most of he talking). During a solar eclipse the stars are visible: the twelve first oytsers (the zodiac) and the other oysters. At the end , the carpenter is the last one to speak (return of the sun) and the stars are gone.
I personally find that this is a bit of a stretch but it does hold some truth: the solar eclipse is a strong symbol of the combination of two opposites, the balance between good and evil, light and dark, yin and yang. This is essential in alchemy.
I am aware that Carroll is fond of chess. Nonetheless a chessboard is powerful symbol of, once again, dichotomy: life (white pieces) and death (red or black pieces) (for more on this subject, watch the Seventh Seal by Ingmar Bergman.) The other major game in the alice in wonderland books has its roots in the occult: the ancestor of our modern game of cards is the Tarot.
I'm not trying to turn Carroll's work into the Da Vinci Code(which I didn't like much, most of the facts are wrong. Although the general theme that paganism was demonified and destroyed by the church is accurate). All I'm saying in that his work is highly metaphorical and Dodgson himself was fascinated by theology. In fact, members of his family found it highly scandalous that he was interested in other religions and beliefs (alchemy and the Kabbalah is quite similar to Buddhism in a sense, and freemansonry encompasses it and also pagan religions (Egyptian in paticular) and christian beliefs as well.) and recognized that they held a lot of truth...
For the mirror part I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm doing research on theology at the moment and my notes are a mess...
_________________
"If you knew Time as well as I do," said the Hatter,"you wouldn't talk about wasting IT. It's HIM."
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NeVaR aSk
Lewis Carroll
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fane wrote: | | All I'm saying in that his work is highly metaphorical and Dodgson himself was fascinated by theology. |
I agree… Dodgson was Broad Church in his outlook therefore, basically, he encompass a wide view of opinions/religions in a not so strict manner as the High Church principles. This is one reason that the family didn’t accept his view since his father was High Church… but don’t put so much interest in this since they were always conservative in all things political and spiritual.
He was the kind of man that let them have his views but left it up to their own consciences, a broadminded attitude for a Victorian I think.
As you point out, the books are metaphorical. That been said and my personal fondness too look for those, many allegories/refrences can be connected but some are way out!... some are theories and will maintain as such since they don’t have a place on his life. All this symbols of the occult/freemasons/dichotomy/solar eclipse etc are all a stretch. Yes, he knew things about this having books with references on the subject, but it is very unlikely he had that in mind when writing the books (TTLG in this case)… its worth mentioning that both books were a sideline compared to his life events. He had so many important things and people to meet that they were made sporadically (people has the wrong image of him been a writer behind a desk with his imagination running wild and making connection such as this one)… he was far more complicated. So, to have subjects like this he would rather had to sit down and make sense of all this references… a thing that may took to much of his busy time.
This is one of many concepts in his life that will remain subjective unless some new concrete evidence rise out of the blues… his diaries/letters doesn’t clearly mention about his spiritual/philosophical views. They mostly show his daily life/routines/meetings/duties and the likes. One time he mentioned going to the freemason’s fete(public festivities/fairs) on July 2 1862, and also we know from his account supporting them as well as many of other charities he was involved with. But this doesn’t tell us nothing.
Besides the purpose of entertaining/sharing ideas, sometimes I ask myself what is the need to look for extremes?... Isn’t better a more realistic approach?. Instead of the chess board land as masonry hall floor, why not better Dodgson’s excursion with the Liddell’s to Gloucestershire plain wich look fairly similar to a square field… or the mirror resembling the one at the fireplace in Hetton Lawn where he entertain the children [?]
_________________
~It is not now as it hath been of yore-
Turn whereso'er I may,
By night or day,
The things which I have seen
I now can see no more.~
W. Wordsworth
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LOL
Honestly, people read far to much into things. There's no way you can compare such a thing as AIW to The Da Vinci Code. Dan Brown did take lots of liberties with his facts, and much of the book is fictional with the odd twist of fact.
