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Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: Alice in translation

I am doing a comparative study of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and the translation of the book into other languages. Many translators have chosen to remove all those traits of Alice (behaviour, formal uses of language ..expressions) which denote Alice's very formal and rigid Victorian upbringing. Some have Alice using slang expressions of the language the book it was translated into. I have to reflect upon the pros and cons of Alice loosing this personality feature...please help me by contributing with your opinion...

is it really relevant to 21st century readers to come across a Victorian character? do you think the story becomes less relevant to them? Thanks a lot!

tweedledammed · Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject:

Ah, for once a "help me with my homework" question that I'm happy to reply to. Smile

I've read it in English and German and struggled through a chapter or so of Spanish with the aid of a dictionary.
The biggest problem for a translator of a book like AiW is that it relies so heavily on language jokes which are more or less impossible to translate. It leaves only two options - translate the words and lose the jokes or try to write new equivalent jokes in the target language and end up with what is in effect a different book.

Of the two I'd say the better translations go for the second option.

A route that you might consider in your work is to consider how you would "translate" Alice into modern English - that is with a new set of of references and jokes that would be understandable to a 21st century eight year old. But this isn't completely equivalent to changing it into another language.

My view is that you shouldn't try to adapt for modern audiences. Books are a product of their time and trying to stamp another era's values onto them is both a hopeless and, in my view, misguided, task.

An example springs to mind. The word, image and concept of a "Golliwog" are now all considered offensive so that modern reprintings of Noddy replace the golliwogs who were his enemies with goblins.
The social attitudes of the time attached no offense to the original word, indeed golliwogs were a popular toy with children around the world. It's only modern attitudes that find it to be a racist slur.
In my view a book should be published as much as a historical document as anything else and if people find that it is somehow beyond the pale in modern society then bite the bullet and don't publish it at all.

With all that in mind I'd say that when translating AiW it's OK to change the jokes into something that is at least funny in the target language but changing the characters and attitudes and the historical relevence is completely wrong.

Just my view here you understand.

Jess · Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject:

I read some of the German version (or a German version, anyway) and was interested to notice that some parts were changed to make the characters German rather than English - for example, the Cheshire Cat becomes the Edamer-Katze. The Mouse's history lesson was completely changed (I can't remember what it was changed to, though) and I think some of the minor characters had different names as well. I'm still not sure if this is a good thing or not - though I'm tending towards the 'not'.

claumoon81 · Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject:

HI I read AW and TTG in italian , my language, and even if the translation was very accurate,is impossible to reproduce such jokes..
for example Dragonfly in Italian is Libellula,and Butterfly is farfalla..you cant find any puns on it or even joke with the meaning of the words.
for this reason,in many part of the books, the clever translater left the words in english and added some notes to explane carroll's puns
AIW Proud

bye claumoon81

The Cheshire Cat · Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject:

The Norwegian translation is very good and very funny, but as with Italian, some of the jokes disappear because the puns don't work. Like when the mouse tells Alice that it's a long tale and Alice looks at the mouse's tail and says "Yes, it is quite long." In Norwegian those two words are not even close to making a pun. (Tale= Fortelling, Tail = hale)

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Lenny · Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:

I think the topic starter didn't ask our opinion about transposing things from the book in general, but specifically about altering Alice's character.

Although I don't have any problems with transposing untranslatable jokes to their local equivalents, I don't think translators should modernise Alice's character. Her rigid upbringing is necessary for the story - she has to be able to wonder about situations and be indignant when the creatures she meets do not act according to the Victorian etiquette she was brought up with.
A modern day Alice would probably wonder about different things, and perhaps react differently to the things in Wonderland than the Victorian Alice does.

For example: do you think our kids still turn out their toes before reciting a poem?

_________________
"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

Thank you for everyone's interesting replies! There are so many published theories on Alice that we can easily get lost! I'vve been working on Alice for the past 5 years.
However, I believe that the best resource is always the readers' reactions to the story... so here goes another question....

Alice is at the top of the list when it comes to well known children's story...However, her popularity is not based on readers' positive reactions to the story but also to negative factors. How do you account for the effects the story has on the reader...how did the story affect you? Is Alice famous for being Infamous? AIW Indignant

Lenny · Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:

I must admit I watched Disney's movie first. I was really fond of it when I was young. Only during high school I decided to read the book for my English class. I found it absolutely magical.
Unfortunately many people only know the story because they heard it is about drug use AIW Angry

_________________
"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Alice in translation

my name is olivia, i am from argentina and i read the book in spanish and english and i must say that translations are not the same as originals, they doesnt show exactly the authors purpose. AIW Proud

lalala!

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sirstargazer · Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject:

Countess D · Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject:

...

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Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join the dance."
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: Wonderland characters

Why I wonder should translations of Alice use THEIR language for characters like the Cheshire Cat,the Mad Hatter or the White Rabbit.
WE use foreign names intact and the above 3 names are famous in their own right without going to unnecessary lengths to turn them into something else

Lenny · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject:

Well.. it's a translation, so why not translate the names too?
You say these names are famous enough on itself, but what if you read the books for the first time? Besides, it is a children's book and children do not know foreign languages, so they do not know the meaning of the names. In AiW the names of the characters are not just names, but say something about their nature.
Third: not everyone is good at pronouncing foreign languages. YOU try to pronounce Chinese correctly Wink

`must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.
`Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a sort laugh: `my name means the shape I am -- and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like your, you might be any shape, almost.'

_________________
"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."

cutiepie · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:20 am Post subject:

In the german translations i read, the names have been translated, yet i dont think this is a good idea, as for example they translated "Cheshire Cat" into "Grinsekatze" which is pretty much what the cat does, yet i dont think it fits too well .. (in english there is some saying like: "The grin like a cheshire cat" which i never heared here.
(In Austria there is a saying like. "wie ein Hutschpferd grinsen" which is very much untranslateable and only is known in parts of Austria)

I think books should be read in the language they have been written, otherwise you just dont know if what you read is anything near that original meaning.

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:06 am Post subject: a cat may look at a king

Hi everyone, I need your help again...

In relation to the proverb, "a cat may look at a king", Gardner refers to it as a well known English proverb, the OED also mentions it, and says it's a proverb...my doubt is, do English readers recognize it as such? Would you use it in when talking to anyone or have you ever heard someone say it before?

The reason for my question is that, if a translator renders a literal expression into a target language of the proverb, won't the effect be the same? Now this all depends if English readers are familiar with the expression or not...In my case, I didn't know it was a proverb at all....

Thank-you!

The books: Alice in translation


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